Jury Questions – David Camm Trial #3




1) What was the caliber of the shell casings found at the scene? (.380)

2) Was it possible that what had been reported as a mixture of blood and serum found streaming from Kim Camm’s head could be something else, such as blood and urine? (Niemeyer wasn’t able to answer.)


The jury had several questions for McDaniel, including whether there were time locks on the gym doors (he wasn’t aware of any) and whether there were cameras on the outside of the gym (he doesn’t recall.)

Galloway (neighbor)
The jury asked if he had seen David Camm’s vehicle pull onto the street shortly before Kim Camm’s vehicle did. He said he did not, but he may have missed it.


QUESTION: Was this a typical DNA investigation?

ANSWER: “I would say it’s typical of a murder case with a lot of evidence,” Scamahorn said, adding that, “this is a very large case.”

Jury question: Can you tell if sweatshirt was being worn when it got blood on it?

No..blood expert

Jury question: Did Kim’s nails or Jill’s nail scrapings show any other person’s DNA?


QUESTION: Was the fingernail found in the right front floorboard of the Bronco consistent with being torn, or clipped?

ANSWER: “That’s not something I can make a judgment call on,” Scamahorn said.

QUESTION: Was DNA from either Charles Boney or his girlfriend, Mala Singh Mattingly, found on the fingernail clippings from Kim Camm?

ANSWER: “No to both of those,” Scamahorn said.

Scamahorn also had to answer why the DNA on the collar of the sweatshirt – DNA that was eventually traced to Charles Boney – wasn’t run through the FBI Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) until after David Camm’s first trial. CODIX is a catalog of DNA profiles belonging to convicted felons that contained Boney’s profile dating back to 1997.

Scamahorn said she was unaware of DNA on the collar, and that she never tested the collar in 2001 because there was writing on it (the word “Backbone”) and she didn’t want to destroy the writing.


Upon jury questioning, Romero said that five years ago, she was called to Indianapolis.

“When I got there, I was told I wasn’t needed anymore,” she said. “I was told I could resign or go on disability.” She said the alleged disability was for a mental disorder. When asked what that disorder might be, she replied, “I have no idea.”

Nevertheless, she said she’s been “paid to stay home” — a standard practice while on disability. She receives half her salary. She said she wants to go back to her job, but every couple of years she is evaluated by doctors — also standard practice — and despite being cleared by the doctors to return to her job three times, the Indiana State Police will not allow her to come back.

Back to Boney’s sweatshirt. Scamahorn: though Boney’s DNA in FBI CODIS database in 1997, I didn’t take sample to run til 2005.

Jury: why? (no answer on twitter?)

Jury: who decides what DNA samples get run through CODIS? Scamahorn: ISP administrators, and FBI screeners. Won’t run ‘insufficient’ samples


Jury: fingerprints taken from casings?

Wessel: yes. (Whose are outside area of expertise) Gun fire-able “as fast as you can pull trigger”


Singleton, to juror’s question: theoretically ‘possible’ to ‘place’ somebody’s print, “but I’ve never been able to do it.”


Do you know whether David/Kim had Will, and if so, whether it named Danny as custodian?

Barber: don’t know about either.


Biddle responds to jurors’ questions: “don’t know” whether Camm’s cellphone recovered or its records. “Ask Sean Clemons” (ISP investigator )

Jurors: were “other leads” being pursued when Camm called you ?

Biddle: several, including reports of “dark vehicle” seen in area,

Biddle to Jurors: don’t know why Camm left ISP four months before murders, nor how long served. (Defense: “better paying, safer sales job”)


Did you have anything to gain by findings–promotion..raise..ect? Does the FBI acknowledge belief of blood spatter?

Can you see blood in fabric weave from photos? Yes.

Was there other HV spatter from Jill at scene? Yes.

How can you see blood stain ‘down in the weave’, from photographs.

Marks: some photos focused enough to magnify; saw it

Jurors: why only a few drops of ‘Spatter’ on Camm’s T-shirt, if firing at close range?

Marks: ‘partially dispersed’ patterns not uncommon

Why wasn’t there HV spatter from Brad on ‘s shirt? Many factors..shot in soft tissue..angle hit..things in path

Marks: if there are ‘intermediate’ targets blocking bullet’s main target (arms, legs, clothing, hair), could explain smaller pattern too.

Jurors: if Bradley Camm were shot while in the Bronco, would there be his blood on Camm’s T-shirt? (DNA shows NOT, in disputed area)

Marks: Brad’s wound was ‘soft tissue’ (through shoulder before severing spinal cord and exiting) — “would not surprise me.”

Jurors: would shooter have gunshot residue on hand? Could it be washed off?

Marks: yes. And Yes.

Jurors: could blood dots on Camm’s shirt come from ‘direct pressure’, by LEANING against ‘Spatter stain’ (somewhere in the Bronco)?

Marks: you could “mimic” the pattern being transferred, but not at this size. And the pattern would STILL be atop of shirt weave, not IN it


Jurors ask Boney what type guns he carries in backpack? Boney: most automatics. .380s and 5-shot revolvers. (defense pounces on this later)

Juror: how did you scrape knee? Boney: the fall in the garage. I was wearing cargo pants under jeans. It was an abrasion that bled.

Jurors: where were you, to hear what was going on in the garage? (Had claimed he’d heard arguing, then Camm open fire) Boney: right outside

how could you hear what was going on in house when in garage?”

I heard him.

Jurors: Why didn’t you call police after shootings?

Boney: I was a coward. Didn’t want to go back to prison.

Boney (on why he didn’t report crimes): I thought of Charles Boney rather than giving Renns (Kim’s parents, Brad-Jills grandparents) closure

Jurors: How did Mala (girlfriend) get blood on sweatshirt? Boney: she’s a diabetic. May have given herself insulin shot or sugar test

Jurors: why go to Camm family’s graves? Boney: wanted to see where they were. J: Any earlier contact with Camm or family? Boney: No.

Jurors: why did you use sweatshirt?

Boney: to conceal gun.

Jurors: did you deliver guns loaded?

B: both times

J: why loaded?

B: always have

Jurors: what was David Camm wearing 9/28/2000?

Boney: dark nylon warmup pants, T-shirt saying ‘buckle up’ (seatbelt safety)

More Boney questions (some may be duplicates as they are from a different source)

Question: What types of guns did you carry in your bag?
Answer: Mostly automatics — .45s, .380s and five-shot revolvers.

Question: How did you get the scrape on your knee on the night of Sept. 28, 2000?
Answer: The scrape came directly from the fall after he tripped on Kim Camm’s shoes.

Question: Why didn’t you call 911 after witnessing the murders.
Answer: “Because I was a coward. I was afraid. I was afraid of my return to prison.”

Question: How did Mala Singh’s blood get on your sweatshirt.
Answer: Boney said his girlfriend at the time, Mala Singh, was a diabetic, and often gave herself shots.

Question: Why did you later visit the Camm family graves?
Answer: Boney said it was his own way of telling them “I was sorry for not coming forward.” He also said he just wanted to find them.

Question: Did he have any association with David Camm before seeing him at Sam Peden Community Park months before the murders?
Answer: None.

Question: Was he close to David Camm’s brother, Danny Camm, when they went to the same school as kids?
Answer: “Not really. He was an unconventional choice for my social circle.”

Question: Did you deliver the clean guns to David Camm loaded?
Answer: “Yes. Both times.”

Question: Why would you sell a loaded gun?
Answer: Boney said he always did this, but later added, “I think it’s quite dangerous, seeing the aftermath – the aftereffect.”


Jurors ask whether Camm ever told him why he left state police.

Bullock: no.

Jurors: how long was each tattoo session?

Bullock: varies

Bullock had explained earlier that prison forbade gettting tattoos, so getting or doing them meant working when guards weren’t looking.

Question: if you receive a sentence modification for being a witness in another case, is it noted on any documents?

Answer: No – the deal is worked out ahead of time.


Jurors also ask why Boney asked her to get gun?

Mattingly: I honestly don’t know why.

Jurors: if guns bothered you so much, why stay?

Mattingly: I did leave the day after (when she claims Boney showed her gun). Her first written statement hadn’t mentioned gun.

(another source) QUESTION: If you dislike guns so much, why didn’t you leave then?
ANSWER: “It wasn’t long after [that] I left. When he came in the room and showed me, that’s when I left.”

QUESTION: Were you on blood thinners in Sept. 2000?
ANSWER: Mattingly replied that she didn’t know what blood thinners were. She then went on to list several medications she was on at the time.

QUESTION: Did Charles Boney ever use his car to transport dirty laundry to places other than his mother’s?
ANSWER: Mattingly told the jury she didn’t know, and she wasn’t allowed to look inside Boney’s backpack, “because he was so private.”


QUESTION: If cotton absorbs liquid, would high-velocity impact spatter remain on the outer portion of a garment?
ANSWER: Yes, because it could not be absorbed onto the other side.

QUESTION: Do you review your previous testimony in the other Camm trials?
ANSWER: Yes, because he has to protect himself from being taken out of context.

QUESTION: Can blood from medium-velocity spatter go into the weave of the shirt? What if the quality of the shirt is poor?
ANSWER: Medium-velocity spatter will typically go through the shirt and come out the other side. High-velocity spatter will not because it is so small.

QUESTION: If you know, was gun oil found on Charles Boney’s sweatshirt?
ANSWER: I don’t know.

QUESTION: Was Charles Boney’s shirt tested for gun oil?

ANSWER: I don’t know.

QUESTION: Who would know?
ANSWER: Someone from a crime lab.

QUESTION: Does thread count in a shirt make a difference in blood spatter penetration?
ANSWER: Yes it does.

QUESTION: Is it possible for a transfer stain to appear as high-velocity impact spatter?
ANSWER: High-velocity impact spatter cannot be duplicated unless you use high-energy.


Jurors ask Gibson if he knows why Camm left ISP four months before murders (they’ve asked several witnesses).

Gibson: just for a better job

Jurors also ask whether Camm had said anything was wrong with left side of the Bronco? Gibson: no.

Unclear where jurors were going, except that blood/ballistics analysts says Kim Camm was standing on passenger side when shot.


QUESTION: The photo of David Camm’s shoe – the one that shows what you claim is a projected stain on the side – also show stains that seem to be moving in a different direction. How do you explain this?
ANSWER: Bevel made a distinction between the larger stain – which he said was projected – and a smaller stain that he said was moving in a downward direction. He said the stains were made in two separate events.

QUESTION: In your experience, how can you have an incident where a suspect shoots someone and come away with only a handful of high-velocity impact stains on his shirt?
ANSWER: It’s possible to have a shooter with NO high-velocity impact stains on his clothing. The number that appears is dependent on a number of factors, including objects that can block the stains, such as hair, clothing or other items.

Jury: Why no HVIS on ‘s shorts and just 8 dots on his shirt? How can that be?

B: Jill’s hair/skin diverted path..got in way

QUESTION: Does the law enforcement community support your findings of HVIS on David Camm’s shirt?
ANSWER: Yes, “if I understand your question correctly.”

QUESTION: Why didn’t you make a report in this case?
ANSWER: “Thank you for asking that.” Bevel said he had originally only been hired to provide a second opinion to the state’s main blood spatter experts. “I never even believed I would be in court at the time I offered a blind opinion.”

QUESTION: Could wind have blown Kim Camm’s hair into the pants button?
ANSWER: “In my opinion, no. Not in this setting.”

QUESTION: Do you think Kim Camm’s body was moved?
ANSWER: “I do.”

Jurors: how could Camm fire at close range, and not have stains on shorts?

Bevel: flight, skin and hair can determine blood path.

Jurors: why DIDN’T you write a full report?

Bevel: was brought in for second opinion (prior to 1st trial) I would’ve, if thought I’d testify

Sam Lockhart:

QUESTION: David Camm told you he was sitting out a game in order to run, stretch and get his heart rate up. Did you see him doing this?
ANSWER: Lockhart said he saw him talking to Tom Jolly while he sat out of the game. He also saw him running.

QUESTION: Doesn’t playing full-court basketball get your heart rate up already?

QUESTION: Where would David Camm have room to do this?
ANSWER: There are 12-15 feet on the sidelines where there are no bleachers.

QUESTION: Did you notice when Scott Schrank left the gym?

QUESTION: Had you loaned David Camm money before Sept. 28, 2000?

QUESTION: How much money have you spent for Camm’s defense in the past 13 years?
ANSWER: “I don’t know what the figure is. I have not added it up.” “It was well over six figures.” Said he sold part of his business to finance Camm’s defense, and also took out a $165,000 mortgage.


Jurors to Gilbert: whose number did Kim Camm’s phone call at 7:50?

Gilbert: don’t know. Also claims not to know if call incoming/outgoing.

Phone records also show two calls 9/29/2000; AFTER murders, after phone in police custody.

Gilbert: don’t know about those either

Jurors: did you confront Det. Wilkerson (Boney’s cousin) about taking phone?

Gilbert: Yes (later tells prosecutors action was “improprer”)


Multiple jury questions about why Goetz used 100% cotton T-shirt in experiments when ‘s shirt was 50% cotton..50% polyester.

Goetz: Cotton more absorbent than blend. But 50/50 blend washed repeatedly..like Camm’s shirt..becomes more absorbent.

Jury: Is it possible Jill’s blood is both transfer & spatter?

G: Anything possible

Jury: Do you know where backpack was when pulled Brad out?

G: No. Only know where it was when crime scene photos were taken but wouldn’t expect that from experiments. It’s transfer.

Jury: Would small dots of blood in Jill’s hair still be viable/wet 2 hours after shot? Wouldn’t it be dried?

G: Dries but still drainage

Jury: Are you aware if the state’s experts did any experiments and if so..did they video them?

Goetz: I don’t know.


Jury: What was weather on day you did experiments in Camm garage Oct ’01? What was it on 9/28/00?

Epstein: 72 degrees when we did blood experiments on garage floor. Don’t know what weather was night of murders.

Jury: Would temp affect experiments and blood clotting/serum separation?

Epstein: Air & surface temps would. Also people clot differently

Jury: Could Kim have been holding her pants when shot..then fallen on them?

Epstein: Yes


J: “Is the amount of touch DNA determined by degree of violence?”

E: Yes..more force applied..better profile.

J: Was touch DNA testing done on Kim’s neck?”

Jury: “Was further testing done on yellow stains on Boney’s sweatshirt?”

No..most stains cut out by time it came to us.

Jury also asked to see pictures of IFS Colorado lab but defense only had Netherlands lab. Those photos entered into evidence.


Jurors want to know when Rossmo first got involved in Camm case.

Rossmo guesstimates last summer

Juror: odd that Camm didn’t recognize sweatshirt or mention it. Rossmo: no. May not have been in garage long, other matters preoccupied.

Juror: wouldn’t examining all evidence available (and investigators’ findings) create its own bias? Rossmo: not if you view it in total

Jurors ask Fay why he believes Brad had ‘survivable wound’ when medical examiner say he probably lived no more than five minutes.

Fay: with medical attention, may have lived long enough to describe who shot him (M.E. had said Bradley paralyzed, but speech possible)

Fay also tells jurors he believes Kim Camm removed her pants herself, probably at gunpoint. “No substantial inconsistencies in Camm’s story”




Jury: Stance on using trace DNA in trials?

R: As long as analyzed reliably.

Jury: Ever reviewed other people’s trace?

Almost every case in last 5-10 yrs. Consulted on 750 cases in 25 yr career.

Jury: Did you enter into the case unbiased?

Yes..I analyze results knowing v little about case initially. I review the science.

Bevel (questions in rebuttal testimony)

Jurors Questions for Bevel: What does your red laser (in Re-creations) represent?

Bevel: shows T-shirt

What does laser path represent if not blood flight path?

B: Just showing COULD reach there..not blocked by anything.

Jurors: Experiment shows “Jill” laying on seat. If head were upright?

Bevel: she’d put gunshot spatter on (Camm’s) T-shirt.

Why didn’t we see your re-enactment during first testimony?

B: Not sure. Prosecution told me it was for rebuttal.

Why didn’t you turn Brad in re-enactment..entry wound in front of shoulder?

That was at time he was shot..not when fell.

J: How much blood did you use to represent blood on Jill’s head?

B: Two eyedroppers filled with blood.

J: In your opinion..can small 1 mm transfer stains be made from coagulated blood on hair?
B: Certainly possible.

Jurors suggests that Goetz disproved his own theory (no ‘spatter’ if shirt hem is below gunshot wound) Bevel agrees.

Prosecutors follow-up: had “jill” been shot, while upright?

Bevel: “much less likely” for Camm to get blood on T-shirt, removing Bradley.

Defense: Goetz conducted his spatter v. transfer blood experiments with shirts at different levels (implying Bevel’s misrepresenting result)

Juror: Can coagulated/stiffened blood in hair make 1mm stains (the essence of Camm’s defense)

Bevel: stain size=same as before blood dried.

Bevel: could such a stain be ‘transferred’ (i.e. Camm’s shirt brushing up against Jill’s hair)?

Yes, if “proper” contact was made.

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